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I was a problem child, I was a regular at the local pub by the time I was fifteen and nobody ever asked me for an ID. Driving under the influence, on the other hand, is treated rather seriously, and I completely agree with that. You can kill not just yourself but someone innocent as well.

Those two things are strongly related in the US. There are very few areas that are built around not driving, so in the US, most people drive most of the time to most places. Since driving can be tricky, the idea is to give young drivers with the least experience a few years of learning how to drive safely before throwing alcohol into the mix. I know two people who died in motorcycle accidents, both driving lawfully and helmeted.

And Abby is awful. Does she think about anything else, or is she a highly specific slut-shaming robot designed by the military? I just assumed it was a lame Jack Hyde inclusion. I had the same thought. He apparently hates the women he sleeps with. It made me wonder why he kept sleeping with women at all when it was apparently always awful and somehow that was always their fault.

So far as I can tell, he never slept with the same woman twice, and he always framed it as being his choice, not theirs. Gross implies something to be squeamish about. If those are his exact words, I get the feeling that he was deeply uncomfortable if he actually did the deed. Jamie Maguire seems to have this uncanny ability to write in a way that nothing happens and it seems to take forever to get there. How many more chapters of this can there be?

Reminds me of Laurell K. Hamilton books. Treats readers as if we need every little thing explained to us. Seriously going to buy only the Edward books from here on out. But also secretly holding out for the book where Edward gets fed up with all the drama and nopes the fuck out of helping her.

Or recognizes what a danger she is and kills her. What a redeeming end to the series, tbh. RIP Anita Blake and may all your victims get they help they deserve. I had to pause my reading to scroll down and comment about the motorcycle thing because it was THAT infuriating. No gear at all. No gloves, helmet, nothing. What about their eyes?

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Is he just squinting into the wind? Know how impossible it is to SEE with no eye protection while riding a motorcycle at low speeds? Do you have boots? Or going with a few others Predator idea, they gotta kill it…. That however would require some self awareness and him wanting to change because being around Abby makes him want to be a better person.

Getting alcohol in America definitely seemed harder to me than it is over here. Was asked for it every single time despite looking my age, while back at home I rarely get asked at all. Can we talk about this for a second? Sexual assault? Your dad must have a lot of pull at the university to get that swept under the rug so fast! You know, when Ethan is talking to an obviously drunk girl at a bar? Instead of warning her, and every other woman in the bar, in public.

Cuz, bro code still stands, right? Also, another checkpoint for the male lead plying the main love interest with alcohol to lower her inhibitions, while knowing that it is morally repugnant. Ethan says right there that he thought Travis was a possible murderer, and that gets no reaction. You were cheering. Because I will beat you senseless if you dare suggest that I would use force against a woman! I mean, except for when they suggest I use force against other women. There always has to be something more for them to even consider believing the victim. Clearly we should all start wearing body cams, just in case.

And now I segue artfully into thanking Jenny for these recaps. Seriously, Jenny, each week I await a new installment in the Jealous Hater Book Club with impatience and each week I get a lovely, delicious shot of snark-flavoured goodness right into my brain. Or McGuire was just writing shit as it came to her mind, she had nothing on Ethan until that very moment, and it struck her that some excuse needed to be given as Abby questioned Travis so McGuire burped up that answer. This also happens when pointing out racism.

This too. Everyone is a little bit racist, some more than others. No one is immune, especially not those straight, white, men who love to knock everyone else down. If it destroys their egos to be called racist, maybe they should try being better people? I mean yeah, we all get mad if someone misreads honest intentions, but the best intentions pave the road to hell and if it happens a lot, then some self-reflection would be good for the soul. Btw, I never thought of that catch-all term, reverse-victimization.

It describes a lot of terrible stuff. On the one hand, there probably are some people who were falsely accused because they made the mistake of trusting a Cathy. Since rape culture is rather prominent and misinformation is rampant, rapists are seen as vile devils who could never be human. On the other hand, I guarantee there are plenty of men out there who have strongly pressured a sexual partner and it could be dubious consent if the other person is somewhat reluctant but gives in. Of course, rapists are just random assholes who took advantage of a situation that they either contrived or found themselves in.

Yes, it requires being an asshole in the first place. But in the end, an asshole is an asshole and everyone has been a jerk at some point. But an asshole had a semi-ordinary bad thought and followed through with it. And rapists are just another form of asshole. We teach soldiers how to do that so they can fight other people. Blaming the victim and refusing to believe them continues the dehumanization process. Making it hard for the victim to bring forth a case and get some justice, at least a goddamn slap on the wrist for the asshole who did it if nothing else, continues to dehumanize them.

It makes it easier for the asshole to continue being an asshole because society agrees with them. But also, we need way better forensics and better police-work in general especially when it comes to caring about their community compared to an easy quota. And unfortunately, this triple-screws any person of color, especially women… There is more incentive to keep quiet and less ability to get justice. None of them are automatically immune or excluded from TM, and TM feeds into rape culture.

But I think understanding is really the key to most things. Phew… I hope some of that made sense.

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He firmly believed that rape and pedophilia were part of normal sexual behavior in part because he got most of his statistics from felons, many of whom had histories of sexual violence. He also took the data on ravishment fantasies and extrapolated that all women who are not asexual, because asexuals are barely human weirdos and the real perverts secretly want to be raped, because rape allows them sexual agency.

Only monsters rape and it is the worst thing that can happen. So we have these two conflicting ideas that rape is a normal sexual behavior that everyone would indulge in if they felt they could get away with it, and that it is the most odious of crimes that only Satan could devise. All the time. I know the guy that raped me and at least one other woman never thought of it as rape. Yes, absolutely! And it also goes as far back as Ancient Rome too, which in part strongly influenced much of Europe throughout the middle-ages.

And do what you love… even if that turns sex into a job, which can make it a bit less fun sometimes. But prostitutes were looked down on, regardless of their situation, while their bodies and movements were policed by their local governments. I actually found a detailed account in a non-fiction book on Google but I recently got a new computer and accidentally lost the vast majority of my bookmarks because I forgot to sync this browser up.

The author extrapolated from the government records of a few cities in Italy, I think it was. In Ancient Rome they were also similarly policed so these are some very old, wonky standards. Ugh, I do hate Kinsey for that. But yeah, gaining sexual agency had something to do with it, just not exactly like that. At the very least, shame can definitely be a kink. So we have these two conflicting ideas that rape is normal sexual behavior that everyone would indulge in if they felt they could get away with it, and that it is the most odious of crimes that only Satan could devise.

Of course, having such strict double-standards probably lead to some women pleading rape, even in a consensual situation, after word got out and she needed to repair her sullied name to be accepted back into society. I remember that discussion and you have my sympathy. He was a grade-A asshole, no doubt about that. Oops meant to clarify, the book in question focused on the middle ages but I know this stuff was also around as far back as Ancient Rome because I have researched that too.

It makes them question things. That might involve having to re-examine their entire world as they know it. Their existence is being challenged, so they get defensive. But plenty of people I knew were and those people knew where to go to get served under age. I know people who were walking in, ordering and getting served without being asked for ID when they were 14 years old — and they did not look older than That was in the early s.

And ugh, there they go again with the animal references. Restaurants and bars? Good fucking luck getting alcohol without valid ID. They are crazy paranoid about selling to minors. I got fucking carded at my company Xmas party. I am still salty about that. Liquor stores though? He left it in his wallet behind the little plastic screen and nobody ever called him on it or asked him to take it out.

Just… show your ID. Irritation usually depends on the circumstances. The company party was in a hotel where we had a group rate.

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I had to go all the way back up and get it. IDK but I thought it was hilarious when sis and I got carded when we went to see Fifty Shades of Crazy after each drinking two ginormous margaritas — we figured tipsy was the only way to have fun at that train wreck. Yeah, most probably. About years ago, I hung out with hair metal bands in L. In the clubs, a very few women would behave like the hordes of women in this book do, and some of those guys were actual rock stars. Travis the freshman has more groupies than I ever saw around Nikki Sixx. And Nikki, a genuine bad boy of rock, behaved more graciously towards them than this boorish lout Travis Daterapist.

Yo, Abby, I know a woman who crashed her bike. She broke her neck. This book. And then use disinfectant and mouthwash and suppress my gag reflex. And yeah, their relationship is absolutely just friends. Like, indubitably. Totally platonic, Abby. Toxic, toxic, toxic. Someone call the Predator already, please, and deal with this ungodly mess. But it makes no sense! She wiggled her hips?

Stood on the balls of her feet? Bad description. Jenny, can I make a request? Can you make a video destroying a copy of this book in the most violent and graphic ways possible? This book is such a liar. The bouncing this bothers me too. It made me think of the bouncing that takes place when I run for the bus. Decidedly unsexy and uncomfortable to boot. I went to a Christian high school and girls with big boobs or particularly round asses were the ones who got in trouble for wearing too tight shirts or pants and they also got harassed by the boys and slut-shamed by the girls for merely existing in curvy bodies.

She was just a pretty girl with big boobs. Things did eventually get better for her once we graduated. That started the rumor that I was the sluttiest slut to ever slut, which started waves of sexual harassment. Currently in vet school, left my undergraduate school a few years ago. Now if you went to a couple grungier bars with less of a crowd, they still checked IDs at the door but were more likely to turn a blind eye to fakes. Where I go now-the whole town is built around the university. So every bar checks IDs. I know one bar in my undergrad was particularly awful to go to as it was mostly 18 yo old girls and 35 yr old men trying to feel young by mackin on the 18 yr olds.

M friends would go out of their way to walk with me or get me an uber or take my car keys if they thought I was really drunk and would be stupid about it. Or at least trying to? I really think this started out as Twilight fanfiction. I used to read some of it and there were plenty of stories reimagining Edward as a fighter and, even just three chapters in, the plots all esssentially hit the same notes as this book.

My guess is that the author may have known EL through being a fellow fan fiction writer at the same time, hence the acknowledgment in 50SOG. Is she expected to memorize or constantly refer to some kind of registry? That particular detail about this chapter really pissed me off for some reason. Like how dare Travis, and in effect the author shame women for not magically knowing if a stranger is dangerous?

Should women just stay at home and never talk to anyone just to be safe? In a similar vein, I think one reason Mcguire and other authors like her never acknowledge abusive behavior is because in doing so they acknowledge that women can be vulnerable and can be victims. That pissed me off too.

So what should Abby do differently next time? Never talk to a man again? Become a nun? A hermit in a mountain cave? Also, we get to learn that the charges against Ethan were dropped. He might have not committed sexual battery at all, for all we know. Both fantasy and non-fantasy examples are welcomed.

In it at least the love triangle feels more plausible.

Does the heroine choose the man who excites her and would elevate her station, or does she throw away all propriety and her good name to be with a man so far beneath her in social standing? I started reading a lot of YA simply because at the time it was easier to find the stories I wanted to read that way.

Then Twilight covered the land and all hope was lost. This also holds true for the ubiquitous love triangle. In BI this girl is being dragged around, nearly killed because of Bourne a hundred times, but yet halfway through the movie they just decide to stop and have sex? I love Easy by Tammara Webber. It actually has a likable main character and a respectful love interest. Thanks for the suggestions. Following that are the high school books, which take place a little after the turn of the century the main girls are in the class of , and the adult books.

Hear that, Tracy!? They just want to fuck you while they want to wife me! I am winning! So Travis can treat Abby like literal shit the whole time, as long as he can pull out romantic one-liners and sprinkle some compliments on top. Also, I tried my best to explain the US college meal plan system on your , based on my experiences with it. The daily specials tended to be more hit and miss than the staples like hamburgers and pizza, but even those could go south from time to time. The food at my college was a huge draw to the campus! My relatives and friends who went to other schools would always be super eager to visit so they could have some.

It really depends on the school. I hope I can get the link to work:. Maybe this? Good Grief. College was over 40 years ago for me and McGuire remembers less of what she learned in college than I do. I only wish there was a way we can get Jenny and the gang to actually support good up and coming writers. But, be that as it may, on to the next novel a trilogy, actually and hopefully that will glean some more attention for her. So congrats on believably writing asshole middle-aged people, I guess?

Is this all this book is? Cabbage Patch Abby hates women, Travernathy is a sexual predator but no one actually has a life where they need to do stuff to survive this world? Is the pivotal plot twist here a miscommunication between the authors two woman-hating sides? Yeah, men do that in real life. In the moment it makes you feel complex and mysterious. And he never considered your wants and needs. But only afterward. This thing puts so much weight on the raising and dropping of value of humans due to their sexual experiences that its less a romance and more a study on the Puritan stock exchange.

How on earth is she labeled a romance author? There is nothing at all the least bit romantic about her portrayal of women in even the tiniest most minuscule way. Why this mess requires toxic masculinity, misogyny, and gender roles: Beautiful Disaster, Ch. You drank my beer! And you had sex on the couch in the common room!! She was just a cheap lay like all the others! Everyone kind of stared at Trav, who stared back, her chest heaving.

She slammed into her room and slept it off. Nobody knew what she was talking about, and nobody dared try to untangle that mess. Her housemate was beyond sick of her shit. She transferred out shortly after. I was worried at first that Travis would be too close to my now retired text RPG character who, in both his fantasy and real world setting could be described like Travis in the blurp except no tattoos for Spider, Luukas on the other hand, all the ink yes plz.

But the fucker has less depth than our goddamn NPCs! These two un-selfaware paper dolls that are bashed together on these pages are without any sort of reasons why they are like they are, and boring and small-minded and horrible to boot. So Luukas is pretty different in some ways from Spider. He has the same avoidant, mistrustful streak plus some culturally instilled misogyny that holds women are somehow different than men.

He could be as bad as Travis, if he had the building-sized ego T has. There are loads of better characterization and more interesting plots out there, and this is what people buy? Actually, my mind started playing with the idea of how Spider would fit in here. It was illegal as hell, of course, but it beat playing puma bait. He was the first in his family to go to college. The side he knew, anyway, and the other side could go hang. The money was good, and even though he hated the crowd, the roar of useless shitstains who wanted to see blood but would never had the guts to come down and play… that fell away from his mind when the fight started.

It had helped him a lot. Take their measure, stay cool, then get absolutely vicious. Even in a fight ring, people rarely really expected it. Letting go was as good as sex. Make them regret the condescending looks, make them eat their teeth, kick where it hurt. The faces blurred. Still, it was sweet, it was always sweet to see the bigger guy not so big anymore, bleeding on the ground.

He look at the crowd, grinned. Some pigeon-brained rich bitch had thought pearls and expensive-looking jumper were the thing to wear for a slumming night. No way someone that stupid knew how to get blood off clothes easily. The whole thing would have to be rewritten to make Abby actually likeable and it would be whole different book…. Erm, all of those are rude, not polite. I hate Travis. Travis is the worst. Part of growing up like that has made me judgmental of people who do not do their utmost to stay healthy themselves because limited empathy , but again, that is just my mindset as an individual.

Stigmatizing people due to illness is Not Good. Actually, it sounds like Abby is stigmatizing women for daring to be born female. Wtf is with that trend? To be entirely fair, I was a judgmental little twit when i was 18 too. It took …a while… for me to grow out of the internalized misogyny and homophobia from the environment in which I was raised. She almost threw a perfectly good beer in the trash because a woman touched the bottle.

His excuse made the corners of my mouth turn up. My brain […]. I go to school in Boston and because there are so many college kids, restaurants and stores are super paranoid about getting caught by the cops. I bet Megan was just trying to have a night out to release some of the stress of her pre-med classwork. Your email address will not be published. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Notify me of new posts by email. December 20, Heads up. Not just me and my vapid, horrible friends, right? Travis walks up and asks America if she needs a ride. Your sunglasses go on your eyes, Abby.

Travis holds the door for Abby, but she stops suddenly and he walks into her. I flipped around. I took my bag from him, and he snatched it back. He walked to the parking lot, holding my effects hostage. America whistled. I smiled in appreciation, and Travis held out his hand. Luckily, Travis sets the record straight. Stay there, Abby. He laughed once. This won a Goodreads reader poll for best YA of the year when it was published. He took a drink, and then his eyes locked on mine. Both have really overestimated their skill.

This is what happens when you try to put on lipstick in a far away mirror when you have alcohol poisoning. Travis glowered down at him. We followed America and Shepley to the car, For more drunk driving, presumably. This fucking guy. I crossed my arms. I pressed my lips together, even angrier that he was right. I had taken it too far. She does not.

How can you resist him? And sexy. And treats you with such respect. The lines were becoming blurred, and it was my fault. No shit? Just not in this chapter. Did you enjoy this post?


Or, consider becoming a Patreon patron! JennyTrout View more posts. Vivacia K. Life is sometimes uncomfortable! But their is nothing sexual about the encounter! Believe me, I have looked at panties and cloths, and it is not at all arousing! The perverted ones are the commenters who somehow want to see sex in everything.

Which leads me to point two:. Yes, this is not well known, but in the times of the Temple in Jerusalem, the laws of purity and impurity had ramifications for men and women. Certain penile discharges also had to be viewed and evaluated. Today the male aspect is moot, and it will remain so until the rebuilding of the Temple, but back in the day, this was an everyday occurrence. It may not have been a comfortable experience, but again, life is not always comfortable. It seems that Aryeh has decided for herself that no logical woman would accept these laws. I challenge readers to read!

Read articles written by women who find that the laws of niddah elevate them. Women are not sex objects to be used by men as it suits the men. A woman is entitled to her personal space, to a time when she and her spouses explore the non-physical parts of their relationship. Is this good for a marriage? I think that today, the divorce rate in the Orthodox community at large is probably a stratospheric… ten to fifteen percent! Yes, too high, but nowhere near the percentage in the country at large.

What explains this low rate? Part of it is that yes, by separating periodically pun intended , a husband and wife maintain their desire for one another. Non-stop accessibility is not ideal for a marriage. However, knowing the colors is a complicated skill that involves significant study under the tutelage of one who already has studied. Generally, it is rabbis who study this matter along with their other studies of ritual law.

It depends on the woman; responses vary. When this is the case, Jewish law allows for less frequent checking; there are ways to minimize the discomfort. But the laws of niddah are not irrational at all. They may perfect sense, and for the record, sex after separation is amazing! To complete my last thought in the previous post: I am not commenting on marital relations after separation from a strictly personal perspective. The Talmud itself states that after a woman goes to the mikveh ritual bath and returns to her husband, their experience simulates their wedding night presumably when they had sex for the first time.

I think that most Orthodox men and women will concur that just as continuous eating of chocolate will lead to a disdain for chocolate, the same goes for other physical pleasures, including intimacy. Orthodox Jews strive for modesty, but this does not mean that Jewish laws shies away from discussing pleasure. The Talmudic Sages were well aware of the powerful sexual urge, and Jewish law seeks to direct that urge, not to discourage it!

We view sex as good, healthy, and part of normative life. Within the marital context, as long as the wife is tehorah meaning she has gone to the mikveh , there are practically no constraints on what she and her husband can do in bed. Looking back, if I were given the choice, I would do it all over again. Keeping the laws of niddah is a wonderful experience.

You must be aware of the fact that the regular readers and contributors to this website are well aware that those people who are still under the effects of their childhood indoctrination into whatever religion it happens to be, believe that the ideas of the ancient desert semitic tribes are of paramount importance in living correctly in this current time. I hope you will not be surprised to hear that every devout Muslim on the face of the earth believes the same thing. Then what happens is predictable; the outsider to that religion spends a few minutes reading the Koran and is immediately shocked at the brutality, sexism and every other moral failure that is recognized by all of us moderns who are not brainwashed from childhood to admire these writings and opinions.

Try to understand that the Jewish holy writings are no different whatsoever than those of the Christians and Muslims. They are the same. You will definitely achieve the opposite result. These books inspire disgust in us moderns. One thing that every secular person is proud of is our ability to leave behind the bad old ideas that come from religion and that come from any other source as well.

It takes a flexible educated mind to analyse ideas and run them through the filter of modern ethics. All of the freedoms and equality that we in the West appreciate and maybe take for granted too, come from the great thinkers of the Enlightenment and everyone who had the opportunity and courage to move us forward to our current position. The very person who started this website, Richard Dawkins, has done so much to boost the position of all secular people and has no doubt suffered great aggravation in all of these years because of it.

We say the same about the Muslims, your cultural cousins. Ten to fifteen percent divorce rate? All fundamentalists keep their women uneducated and block them from having good money making careers. You flatter yourself to think that your women are happy when they and their children are under oppressive control.

You think that a few days of no sexual contact will refresh her interest in you? No wonder fundamentalists control their women so closely. With that kind of dull sex and display of disgust over the state of female genitals I pity any woman who has to perform her marital duty for the rest of her life in these conditions. Hmm, I would argue the converse: those who believe that the physical world somehow came into being by itself are entirely illogical.

But this is quite beside the point. To a carefully worded, gentle post, you responded with an invective. I will not stoop to your level, but I will respond to your points: 1. You have somehow figured out that our low divorce rate is do to our women having no careers and no outside life. Neither is the case. Today, most Orthodox women have careers outside the home. Many are lawyers, doctors, or even Ivankas well, maybe not that rich! In the home, they and their husbands work together to raise their families.

You, as an outsider, have no right to tell us whether we are happy! But you are welcome to interview my wife and ask her. It is an ontological fact that familiarity breeds contempt. The reason we keep the laws is that God commanded us to do so. But freshness is a great byproduct! And in truth, as one gets older and one has a somewhat lower sex drive, this particular benefit of separation recedes, which coincides well with women reaching menopause and not needing to separate. But I will tell you, Laura, once in a while I do miss those times of separation and renewal!

I do believe there is good to be found in Islam and in Christianity. Within the marital context, as long as the wife is tehorah meaning she has gone to the mikveh. Breeding large numbers of new cult child members as a method of sustaining and spreading the meme, is also a feature — regardless of the poverty which can be produced as a result of large families where resources are limited!

Logic is a process of deduction and induction — usually starting with physical evidence , NOT a badge to be stuck on to asserted preconceptions about conjured-up magical creations. The evolution of the Earth following its formation, is explained by the Giant impact hypothesis , as most astronomers and educated people know. This is an evidence based logical understanding of accretion events which are still observable and on-going in the Solar System! If he refuses to, that is grounds for divorce and the converse applies as well. As for poverty, those who opt in to Orthodox Judaism know that birth control is allowed, depending on circumstance.

Poverty is absolutely a circumstance that comes into play when deciding whether birth control is allowed. The comment is about a number of religions such as Catholicism , which discourage birth control! A religion is not a race — and religious conflicts may or may not be between groups of the same of different races! The Jewish view on birth control currently varies between the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform branches of Judaism. Among Orthodox Judaism, use of birth control has been considered only acceptable for use in limited circumstances.

A you saying your lives are not dominated by reporting your sex lives to rabbis, following particular dress codes, and carrying out strange behaviours or abstaining from various activities during the Sabbath? Observations of religion related behaviours on this website, are not confined to any one religion or sect of it! This attempt to imply general criticism as anti-semitism is a poor show and needs to stop. It is not. Love to hear your advise to the woman Avi. Mmm — The accounts from witnesses — particularly female witnesses, seem to differ from those of salesmen! All fairy tales leave out the trail of destruction the white night has left behind.

Olgan, to which woman? The one in the link at 48 Avi. As I stated — a religion is not a race! The two are not interchangeable! Race is the classification of humans into groups based on physical traits, ancestry, genetics, or social relations , or the relations between them. The term was often used in a general biological taxonomic sense,[6] starting from the 19th century, to denote genetically differentiated human populations defined by phenotype. Perhaps you could explain which one it is?

As far as I am aware people with black skins believe in a wide range of religions, and hold a diversity of views on contraception, just as the diverse religions of Islam, Judaism and Christianity, are followed by the the Semitic races of the Middle East! It is quite common for those isolated in fundamentalist beliefs, to be unaware of the wider range of viewpoints held by the peoples of the world outside of their own limited religious circle!

Perhaps this will explain it, but it does cover a spectrum of religions, rather than just some sects of Judaism. Fundamentalists often assert the primacy of their own idiosyncratic interpretation of religious texts over centuries of acquired knowledge and practice. This puts them at odds not only with the secular world and members of other religions, but also with their less zealous brethren. Olgun asked you what advice you would offer to her.

Two classes of people breed unsustainably, the very poorest who need kids to help them survive better through illness and old age and the fundamentalist religious breeders, Catholics, Quiver-Full folk, and yourselves. Most other Christians and Muslims with high total fertility rates are simply dirt poor. Children believe anything but as an adult you have the freedom and obligation to pull forth all of these ideas and filter them through the framework that ethics provides.

Is there harm? Based on the ethical obligations I will present them if you would like that. This is what I mean by modern ethics. This is training for the mind. Yes there are a few old ideas that I have kept. There are aspects of traditional lifestyles that I retain but this is only after I have given them years of consideration and observation of their consequences.

But the bulk of the bad old ideas that were meme dumped into my brain by people around me when I was a child and the hours every week that I was forced to spend at the Methodist church were judged by me to be either useless or harmful. In fact, it took me years to review those stupid memes and dispose of them with better replacements.

I lost too much time. This leaves me very bitter. I will refer you to a book by Lawrence Krauss on this subject or any other qualified person. My field of study at University was experimental psych and I added a couple semesters after that with classes in the bio department, anthropology, etc.

These classes were necessary for me to have some basic understanding of the discussions that take place here on this site. There are still many mysteries to be solved. The beauty is in the quest. By invective, do you mean the general tone of my comment or is there an ad hom in there somewhere? You must realize which website you have wandered onto, right? I mean, you can write any vile ideas in gorgeous prose but if the ideas are rotten to the core then what I will offer you is the truth of my opinion.

The ideas that you defend are ones that are disgusting to anyone who is not completely brainwashed in your ancient ideology. For women who are trapped in fundamentalist communities I hope they can find happiness somehow somewhere. They rarely have the means to do so and I would never ask them to leave their children behind. You seem very confident that your little world is happy and stable. When women suffer from oppression here or there or across the globe, I feel that. All women feel that and yes indeed, we are judging you.

As a member of a community that has been persecuted relentlessly, surely you can identify with this. Thank you for providing an example of how we take ideas and churn them through some skeptical analysis. It adds nothing. I think familiarity breeds a little ennui here and there. A little taking the other for granted.

Just a little evo-bio-psych joke there. Come on Avi, lighten up a little, will you please? That was wicked funny. I know you can do it. Now Ari, this is purely lack of imagination. A little advice, book yourself and the Mrs into a cute little seaside resort in the South of France for as much time as you can afford. This will have wonderful effect that a dreary religious rite could never compete with.

Now get that charge card out and take action instead of droning on about your tired rituals. What are you waiting for. ALL ideas are fair game! I understand that your first impulse is to lash out with insults but please try not to do that right away. Think it through. I do know how difficult this process is.

We all get our backs up over assertive challenges to what we hold dear. I do give you every credit for having the guts to venture forth here even if we never agree on a single thing when you must have known that there are readers who disagree with you. Also, I do believe that chucking around accusations of anti-semitism is a lazy and predictable tactic. Alan, from the responses I have been getting, it seems that you folks, not we, are the intolerant ones. You cannot stand the fact that someone holds different beliefs than you although, lacking any moral barometer, I am uncertain how you have any beliefs at all.

Au contraire, our sex lives are private! Unlike your world, where everything goes and there are no moral restraints, we believe that a sense of modesty has value! Yes, we believe that on the Sabbath, we are restricted from certain activities. Thank God, I do not have seven days in my week. I have six days plus one entirely different day. I am thrilled every time the Sabbath commences and I am saddened when it ends. What a beautiful thing to be able to take one day off from the rigors, physical and mental, of the week!

I recommend you try it. But yes, some things we do may seem strange to you. You have no concept of Judaism. You have no experiential evidence upon which to rely. You examine everything by your narrow-minded, anything goes barometer. That is truly sad. I am kind of surprised well, not really that an organization claiming to support open-mindedness is so closed-minded to others! If you use that term with us, then yes, it is anti-Semitic.

I have maintained an even, reasoned tone. Others perhaps not specifically you have been much more ad hom; a sign, I believe, that they have no argument! I have addressed most of your points, but let me assure you, Laurie, one can faithfully observe our rituals and still check into a romantic resort, with whirlpool for two, and thoroughly enjoy themselves. What are you selling. Your wonderful life full of whirlpools and sex or the religion? If it is the latter then it clearly is not working for all and in particular women. Do you care or are you going to carry on ignoring people like that woman in the link.

Bit much telling others their world is narrow when when you ignore whats going on around you. Please stop the victim stuff. Ive lost count. You are killing the conversation. You cannot stand the fact that someone holds different beliefs than you. On the contrary! I have studied many different beliefs and world views, and have evaluated them in terms of their long and short term effects on people, and the capability of people to cope with the problems of life.

There are, and have been, literally thousands of religions and cultures in addition to yours. I collect evidence based ideas which have been tested and shown to work, and then up-date them when valid new information becomes available. I thought this discussion was about women regularly consulting rabbis about sexual discharges! Did you miss that point? In the secular world they consult doctors if they think there is a problem.

You clearly have no concept of secular morality or codes of conduct which involve empathy, reciprocal altruism, and consideration of other people. Humanism is about respecting humans, not gods. The taboos come in many forms. There are also quite a few secular Jews who participate in discussions on this site, although they usually base their comments on their associations with Jewish family members and evidence, rather than just making wild assumptions about the knowledge of others in discussions.

It is sad that you do not know how to seek out real information about other viewpoints, but are left looking at a blank when others say they do not accept all of your personal beliefs. I think this psychological projection of your own lack of an open minded view of the world outside of your own belief bubble. You exhibit a lack of awareness, and seem to be struggling to even discuss other viewpoints. Unlike fundamentalists, those who embrace critical rational thinking and science, are very open minded, but examine ideas for evidenced support and validity before accepting them.

Lack of acceptance does not imply a lack of knowledge or understanding. They are not open to having any old long refuted garbage poured into their heads. Folk taking more than their fair share need a good reason like being dirt poor and in need of help. That is of course once again an irrelevant strawman diversion from the original issue of religious discouragement of contraception for the purpose of creating large families of believers. Arguing a false equivalence is a fallacy! Gratuitous allegations of anti-Semitism, are just a mentally lazy way of dodging answering valid criticisms — usually criticisms of:- damaging or repressive religious beliefs, the government of Israel, or Zionist literalist claims to be entitled to steal land from the previous owners whose families have lived on it for decades or centuries!

My take is as long as both consent and what manifests is strength and love, have at it.. I applaud you for finding such harmony and adopting practices that again, due to your words seem to heighten and deepen your love for each other. My questions. Would you speak harshly to her. How about your brothers children? Would there be gossip? If your grandson wanted to be baptized christian, would you disown him? If any of your family members identified as atheist, would it be a crisis? See, pressure to conform is not always overt and obvious.

It is not always actually verbalized. Sometimes menace can simply be shadowy and amorphous. So, tell me, are you inadvertently I am sure pressuring your family members into conformity? I eagerly await your answers. Do you realize that you have lobbed a few insults at the regulars here? This is what the negative reactions are about. I am not trying to convince you or any other critic here. Judaism does not need excusing.

We have a tradition, coming from God, that is thousands of years old. Our tradition has withstood the test of time. But you are certainly guilty of engaging in ad hominem attacks, rather than addressing the issues at hand. How unfortunate. Laurie, I have not lobbed insults at anyone. If you took any of my words in that fashion, I apologize. I did not say an atheist cannot be moral, but even if I did, that would not be an ad hominem, it would be an observation based on an assessment of atheism as a philosophy.

Here is what I mean, and of course i welcome a reasoned response: When one believes in God, especially in an all-encompassing religious construct such as Judaism has, at least one has a basis for their moral views. For example, I believe that murder is wrong I am referring to a classic case of, say, John murdering Steve because John decides he wishes to kill someone. The reason I believe John would be wrong is that I believe God commanded us not to murder.

It is fair not an ad hominem to ask you, as an avowed atheist, whether you believe John is being immoral in murdering Steve, and if yes, why do you believe this. I think, Laurie, that this is a fair place to start, and I look forward to your response. Avi Report abuse. Crookedshoes, sorry for the delay in responding. Thanks for your input, and indeed these are good and serious questions. The penalty for having relations with a niddah is the same as for eating on Yom Kippur!

But if, God forbid, I had a child who became not religious, I would be very saddened. However, gossip is not permitted in Jewish law, except in very limited circumstances. Simply to talk about someone is forbidden. If a child of mine were to become Christian, that would be another story. This is considered absolutely horrible.

If my daughter or son chose to become gay, that too would be terrible, but i would not break off my connection with them, at the same time not welcoming a same-sex partner into my home. I doubt you will like these answers, but i think they are an accurate depiction of how most Orthodox Jews would react.

What would you do without your religion? But you come to an atheist site expecting a hallelujah and a praise the lord for every one of your posts. If not then…. I have no reason to attack you, though you tried rile me by deliberately misspelling my name in an attempt to divert attention from my question. That part actually showed me how far my internet savvy has grown as these sort of attacks were and are still being used by trolls on the net. Starts with a nursery school name calling followed by diversion and then, this-.

Others perhaps not specifically you have been much more ad hom; a sign, I believe, that they have no argument. You are behaving exactly like a troll even if you are not or realise you are doing it. It is evasive and adds not a jot to the conversation. I am genuinely happy that you are happy within the structure of your choice but not to acknowledge those that are not is immoral. What does your religion say about those less fortunate than yourself? Ignore them? Feel anger at them because they dare speak up? Now, again, what advise will you offer this woman , who is of your own faith, based on what you know your religion requires of you in these circumstances.

If you are following religious lines in ignoring her suffering then do you have a moral opinion outside of it, like the rest of us here. Logic is a description of arguments. Statements of fact about the structure of arguments, are not insults! Being wrong is not being insulted! Are you suggesting that your religious group is not a denomination, sect, or cult of Judaism? That would be a position which is rather hard to support! Atheists hold a diversity of philosophies as do the followers of various religions. Killing is quite often approved by states when they want soldiers or rebel groups to do their dirty work.

The texts are full of applause for killing people from other religions or other tribes. Most atheists would comply with state laws to respect their fellow man, but there could be exceptions in militaristic repressive states, where state elites abuse the general population or particular minorities.

The fundamental difference between secular states and theocracies or political ideological states, is that secular states generally seek equality before the law for all, whereas theocracies seek privileged positions for the followers of particular religions or ideologies. That is why there are mass killings in religious wars between theocracies based on different religions! That is the problem with the mind-slavery of sects and cults. There is no respect for rational debate or toleration of other viewpoints.

That is why the antiquated ignorance-based on bronze-age preconceptions of dogmas resist up-dating in the light of new evidence-based information. If my daughter or son chose to become gay, that too would be terrible, but i would not break off my connection with them,. This is simply an assertion of bigoted ignorance! This is a medical condition derived from their embryological development in the womb. As biologists know, the dichotomy of male and female is not absolute — neither in humans nor in other organisms. Some species of fish for example, often change sex at some stage in their lives.

If you had a disabled child who was a wheelchair user, would you also refuse their fellow wheelchair using partner admission? According to the United Nations, the condition affects up to 1. These are the sorts of issues where atheists challenge the bigoted ignorance-based bronze-age pseudo-morality of religious dogmas which go in for abusive victim blaming!

My post 74 should have been for 70! The origins and evolution of this god from the polytheistic Canaanite pantheon, are being progressively researched by archaeologists and anthropologists. However thousands of other religions can make similar claims, and have, or have had, followers making similar claims to yours! Do you have some evidence that your claims have any more substance than theirs? The highest court ruled that current laws preventing members of the same sex from marrying violated their right to equality and were unconstitutional. But strayed we have. Rather than respond to some of the more silly asides, I will focus on two issues: the morality of murder and the issue of homosexuality.

I am asking a simple question. As an atheist, do you believe John can kill Steve for no reason, and if not, why not? Oops, I clicked Send too early! One can feel something and not act upon it. I may be born with an innate sense that I need to steal things. That is part of the challenge of life. However — a study of biology and embryology clearly identifies a range of intersex conditions!

You see I am a biologist who reads medical text books and biological studies, rather than bronze age-guesswork wearing a god-badge! Could I recommend some study of the actual subject at a top international medical reference site! Ambiguous genitalia is a birth defect where the outer genitals do not have the typical appearance of either a boy or a girl. The male and female reproductive organs and genitals both come from the same tissue in the fetus. This makes it difficult to easily identify the infant as male or female. The extent of the ambiguity varies.

In very rare instances, the physical appearance may be fully developed as the opposite of the genetic sex. For example, a genetic male may have developed the appearance of a normal female. Alan 75 — If you had a disabled child who was a wheelchair user, would you also refuse their fellow wheelchair using partner admission?

Canada Jokes - Canadian Jokes

I will focus on two issues: the morality of murder and the issue of homosexuality. Re murder, rather than addressing my crystal clear question: Does an atheist believe John can kill Steve simply because John feels like it, and if not, why not,. First of all, people who are not psychopaths do not casually kill people anyway. Usually they need a strong motive! A secular humanist view, is that societies need to establish laws and manage their own moral codes of conduct, based on equality of rights, mutual co-operation, and altruism.

Perhaps you could explain the various accounts of acclaimed killings and genocides against rival states, rival tribes, and rival religions. Deuteronomy I tried to give a vague meaningless question some context. We are fundamentally different on this point, you and I. And, in my system of morals, you are extraordinarily morally corrupt on this point.

More importantly, I also find your other answers deeply, deeply immoral. It makes me happy and I have a right to it. And, that is precisely where your beliefs hurt others. And my sentiment of not judging others is clearly stated in your own Holy books and YOU choose to flout them…. Our sages ask, when are you allowed to judge another person? The answer: Never. The explanation given is as follows: Who says your blood is redder than his?

Talmud — Sanhedrin 74a. You have a tradition that came purely from men inventing stuff to suit themselves and ascribing it to an imaginary god, and I mean men in the male sense because almost exclusively women had little say in the origins of the ancient religions which is why they are so discriminated against in them. End of. You are just a product of your particular childhood brainwashing. However childhood brainwashing is very hard to overcome.

We understand that and are saddened by it. Hi Avi. I am one of the secular Jews Alan mentioned and a semi regular contributor here. They have the patience of Job if that makes you more comfortable. You have also conducted yourself this way, just with a message we cannot rationally appreciate.

I use the word rationally on purpose. I will remind you again of where you are choosing to post. You need to understand that we are as incapable of believing in your sky god as you are in his absence. But let me be clear on this point: we are NOT incapable of considering it rationally however. That seems anathema to your dogma. We would never have evolved without an innate morality.

This much is clear. I love that. And I shall steal that with attribution with your permission. Love that. I remember Richard debating with some bat shit crazy blonde American woman years ago who spoke in the quietest calmest voice that nothing could upset but everything that came out of her mouth was pure poison. Also Ted Haggard raging against gays whilst paying male prostitutes for sex and calling the police against Richard because he discussed evolution he accused me of being a monkey. It has nothing, however, to do with homosexual conduct! It was not my intent to seek out a secular site just to post!

However, I will note that it seems you prefer insularity, that is, you prefer not to engage in discussion with those who disagree with you. I have no such issue, I am much more open-minded. We all agree that societies need to establish laws. So we agree, we need laws. The laws against, say, murder, are meant so that society is not destroyed. But this has nothing to do with morality! What makes you think these are positive values?

Indeed, what makes you think there are values at all? It is this issue that particularly interests me. By the way, this has nothing to do with the original posted article. Obviously you would or should agree that a self-managing group such as Orthodox Jews can have its own rules, as long as it is not forcing others to keep those rules. I would fully agree with that notion. I await your response. I would say that I am absolutely prohibited from within!

And as I have never been religions and come from a family of non-religious people and have had very little contact with orthodox Jews and no very little about Judaism. I can only assume that that feeling of murder and rape and stealing, and hurting people being wrong does not, cannot come from any God. God to me and to many compassionate and humane agnostics and atheists is simply Nothing. This sense of prohibition does not come from the State either, i. It is not an easy thing to explain; these are complex questions, and they should be asked.

Empathy, being civilized, caring about others… All those things have developed willy-nilly over the centuries, but not enough, as violence and hate and cruelty is still so prevalent, prevalent among religious Jews and Christians and Muslims and their non-believing counterparts as well. We have enough homicides in the world. The prisons are filled with homicidal maniacs. So for all of our sakes, stay religious until you figure out how you as a man, an individual with your own set of values and sensibilities, feel about killing — and not a child or soldier taking orders from Big Daddy in the Sky.

Yes, I am expressing some disdain. Many Holy Books do advocate killing. Did you read what someone had written above about all the different religions all saying different things? Religion cannot possibly last; no lie can live forever. Regards, Report abuse. Actually it does, because the brain development governing sexual attraction, is similarly affected by hormonal effects on the embryo in the womb. I recall this earlier comment, but it appears when it comes to homosexuals and intersex people, you express an urge for friends and family to bring pressure to bear on then in exactly that way!

So which is it? Just as the writer of the article did, one can choose not to follow the laws. There seem to be conflicting claims and compartmentalised thinking in your comments. Perhaps there are some reasons here in threats to apostates, why you seem to have mental blocks making you unable to follow the reasoning which challenges some of your mistaken preconceptions. Well Avi I appear to have underestimated your smiling hate and condescension. And if I preferred insularity I would not have posted. What I disdain however is arguing with a dogmatic close minded person which you quite clearly are.

This world is no less valid than yours. These are of course worked out by people making informed judgements on predicted outcomes and balancing the interests of various parties. For example professions such as doctors have codes of conduct, which most follow voluntarily, but which include sanctions against rogue individuals. Now we are talking! However laws as I explained should be based on evidence and predicted outcomes, not ancient superstitions.

Actually no! Most systems are less than perfect, and many are corrupt! That is where the objective evaluation of various political systems comes in. The values are chosen by the people of the community. All laws and codes of conduct are the work of humans, including those which some try to enhance by sticking a god-badge on to them. Actually, it does because it looks at the sources of ideas and mental processes directing the behaviour patterns under discussion. I recognise god-beliefs as a mental delusion created by childhood indoctrination.

Groups form their own rules, but it is perfectly reasonable to evaluate the effects of these on members, relations of member, friends of members, children of members and members who wish to leave the group. As with politics in general applications of rules are open to abuses, so criticism and in extreme cases actions are justified.

There are many examples where authority figures in religions sometimes in league with politicians , abuse their positions to the detriment of their members. Not only are many regular posters on this site well read, but many are ex-Christians, from Muslim families or are secular Jews. There is a wide ranging understanding of religions and their effects in societies. Would that be okay with you? I think we are centering on the problem! My set of questions sure seems to have exposed the closed mind and smiling hate trademark pending.

Avi would regard his son being homosexual as terrible. The cognitive dissonance and absolute lack of self awareness is staggering. Guy with his hair parted on the side, accountant, clean shaven, neat orderly???? Serial killer. I can only assume…. And as I have never been religions and come from a family of non-religious people and have had very little contact with orthodox Jews and know very little about Judaism, I can only assume…. I would also add that as the atheist Dr. Jonathan Miller admitted, we do owe religion, the Christian religion in particular, a certain debt of gratitude; it helped to move the evolution of our moral idea of brotherly love along.

But morality is not from God. No, that would not be okay with Alan or with any of us. It would be dreadful. But that is the world we live in and the struggle for humane laws and justice is continuous, and cruelty and injustice and bigotry, etc. That is far, far more dangerous, far more insidious — and you know it. Yes you have centered on a fundamental problem.

Dan responded: No, that would not be okay with Alan or with any of us. Dan, what I am asking is: Why would it not be okay with you? I am not seeing an answer to this question. I will note that I had the same discussion recently with my brother, a practicing, believing Orthodox Jew who maintains that one can devise a moral code without religion. But my brother, along with all the posters on this site, has been unable to logically explain why this moral code would have any standing or any validity. What makes something right or wrong?

To this, I have not heard an answer from the atheists on this site or from my believing brother, much as he wants to side with you. I am saying that as of yet, I have not heard a cogent rationale for it. I am open to suggestions! Avi — He also introduced other non-related issues e. Of course not — I explained secular values earlier. There needs to be various bodies to hold those in authority accountable. When particular religions dominate the local legislatures national legislatures, police and the courts, actions of religious authorities are looked at through rosy spectacles, and we get the sorts of covered up abuses, such as Catholic priests raping children with impunity.

Not really! The former view require a LOT more study! It is the same with making the effort of developing the ability to work out your own code of conduct, V copying a simplistic one which is spoon-fed to you. Science based decisions on abortions are determined by survivability without debilitating complications affecting the baby or the mother, and the later potential life quality of the infant. You are going to have to stick around and join in with discussions on how the brain works, evolution and animal behaviour, to name a few, and be as open minded as you are to suggestions, if you want an answer that you might be happy with.

Morality is not devised by atheist but by millions of years of evolution. I was wondering if Religious Jewish people would be happy being represented here by Avi and I googled a few things and found this;. Why would it not be okay to kill people in a given secular community?

These ideas and arguments are debated and it is rare to find a society where there is universal agreement about what should be considered right and proper and what is considered wrong and improper. With regards to the State, I would say that in a democracy, where people are allowed to worship as they wish and to speak their minds and be who they are, its citizens should be able to enjoy their natural right of freedom to exist assuming that they are able to obey reasonable laws , to live their lives, without fear of being arrested or persecuted or punished, without being criminalized.

Dictators are always capricious and always impose their paltry will upon the freedom and the pursuit of happiness of others, trample on that right. Democracy is a state of grace, easily lost; laws concerning justice are a delicate thing too, based often on consensus. But that is the nature of morality with regards to the State. Perhaps this basic uncertainty as to why one must not do this or that has given rise for the need on the part of many for some kind of ultimate authority on these matters. Democracy is a grace. Fascism goes back to our infancy and childhood, where we were always told how to live.

We were told, Yes, you may do this; no, you may not do that. So the secret of fascism is that it has this appeal to people whose later lives are not satisfactory. Murder as a way of life is not an isolated issue; it is bound up inextricably with such things as justice and truth. To condone murder is to deny justice and to affirm lies such as those based on prejudice or a false sense of moral superiority.

Why is it better not to kill? Because we as individuals have risen above the egotism of brutes, because we regard indifference to human life as depraved. Persecution and murder based on capricious laws or the need to control in order to maintain power is not only impractical, it is based on a system that is unsustainable as it is based on lies and on vice — and all lies and all vice eventually do harm and destroy those who engage in them in the end.

From a mere pragmatic point of view such a way of life where killing is considered lawful or acceptable would make life impossible. The question as to whether this is learned or not does not belong here; let us assume it is learned, for clearly it can be. The opposite of this is base egotism. It comes from no law although the laws are a practical necessary to keep selfish men from preying on others which is no basis for organizing a civilized society that aspires towards the cultural and aesthetic Good or that has any affinity with Beauty.

Thou Shalt Not Kill is a flimsy thing indeed designed, presumably, for criminal-types and accepted by malleable, pathetic, hoodwinked half-men and half-women who have no sense of their own personal dignity or the dignity of others, and would or might be inclined to kill or do harm without such messages of prohibition, sent by a man-made God.

The strength of the prohibition is proportionate to the latent desire to commit the crime. Gods are made in the image of Man and his laws cannot be relied on. Gods and goddesses belong to the realm of mythology. When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. Not true, at least for Judaism. We believe that while God guides many things, we have the free will to do good or evil. We believe we can overcome our inadequacies.

Surely you must admit that you may be wrong, because you have no experience to dictate otherwise. I, however, have the experience within Judaism to comfortably assert surety! To make a block of text orange just add a right arrow directly in front of the first word. Try that and see if it works. Actually I quoted Olgun saying that and posted the the chapter in the book giving depth of explanations on the evolutionary genetics of altruistic interactions in populations.

Actually, not far off from how Judaism thinks, although there is a wide spectrum Jewish law is very complicated, much more complicated than civil law, and different experts hold different views, all based on their incredible knowledge of the subjects at hand. Science is a mostly objective discipline, it has no feelings and no moral contours. People make moral judgments, and I still await someone who will answer my core question: How does an atheist determine what is moral?

Avi In your comment you are sure to run into trouble with this communication. The problem is that the science community has one thing in common and that is how we think and talk about probability. Anyone here who has a college degree in science or math processes certain statements and assertions in the same way due to the training and education that we have. We entertain hypotheses and think about how to test them.

We collect, organize and analyse data. We make conclusions based on those analyses and then consider the implications of those results. When in the company of my fellow science majors this is something I count on them knowing. To me, everything is a probability equation. Some things are more probable or less probable than other things. This is how we view the probability of the existence of a god or collection of gods or any other supernatural creature. The probability that there is an omniscient, omnipotent being that has created this universe and all of the life in it is in fact, so absolutely minuscule as to be for all intents and purposes — so close to the number zero that we will all now say — the probability that this entity exists is ZERO.

The end. We will no longer waste our time speculating as to its nature and properties and we will move on to more interesting hypotheses. We will end up talking past each other forever if these two very different ways of understanding reality are maintained. What any science major will require and what anyone who relies on logic and rational thinking will require is for you to present a hypothesis — God exists, and then explain how you will collect data and move to a conclusion one way or another, that will satisfy us that this is truth or not truth.

This cannot possibly be processed by us and it makes no sense whatsoever. It is only a feeling stated with emphasis. My field is psychology and I can tell you that emphatic statements that are based on nothing but feelings are very common and are often completely false. Too many of these curious statements in too short a time and your shrink will be reaching for his prescription meds pad, pen in hand. Not good. When they do this they usually include a link to the evidence for their assertion.

If they fail to do that you are within your rights to ask for their evidence. This is how science and rational thinking works. I hope you will try to talk to your brother again about his ideas on secular morality. Your religion, like all of them, include a little subroutine that kicks off a fierce defensive reaction. Yes, they all have this feature. Can you suppress this reaction long enough to give his ideas and the ideas presented here a fair trial?

Also, you are perfectly capable of reading some entry level science and material on ethics, humanism, etc. Even if it never changes your mind, there is some credit to you for making an honest attempt to try to understand how many other good people create a worldview that is moral and good with no reference at all to a supernatural all powerful being.

Or, you could double down on the substantial defense systems that are evident in all of your comments here. I can do much better than that!